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	<title>Comments on: Stigmergy and social interaction</title>
	<atom:link href="http://eripsa.org/2005/12/stigmergy-and-social-interaction/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://eripsa.org/2005/12/stigmergy-and-social-interaction/</link>
	<description>dea nova machina</description>
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		<title>By: eripsa</title>
		<link>http://eripsa.org/2005/12/stigmergy-and-social-interaction/comment-page-1/#comment-571</link>
		<dc:creator>eripsa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Dec 2005 21:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eripsa.org/blog/2005/12/stigmergy-and-social-interaction/#comment-571</guid>
		<description>I think we are basically on the same page. I have to remind myself that these problems and solutions are really a product of the behaviorism of the 50s, and to a large extent people have switched vocabularies and organizing frameworks. 

My only point was that we have to be careful about what we attribute to &#039;instinct&#039;. The instinct to &#039;put mud where others put mud&#039; isn&#039;t the same thing as in instinct to build pillars, even though that is the end result. The pillars aren&#039;t in the individual, they only exist as a product of the combined contributions of the community members.

In any case, &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://eripsa.blogspot.com/2005/12/collective-talent.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; here&lt;/A&gt; is another example of stigmergy in action.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we are basically on the same page. I have to remind myself that these problems and solutions are really a product of the behaviorism of the 50s, and to a large extent people have switched vocabularies and organizing frameworks. </p>
<p>My only point was that we have to be careful about what we attribute to &#8216;instinct&#8217;. The instinct to &#8216;put mud where others put mud&#8217; isn&#8217;t the same thing as in instinct to build pillars, even though that is the end result. The pillars aren&#8217;t in the individual, they only exist as a product of the combined contributions of the community members.</p>
<p>In any case, <a HREF="http://eripsa.blogspot.com/2005/12/collective-talent.html" rel="nofollow"> here</a> is another example of stigmergy in action.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://eripsa.org/2005/12/stigmergy-and-social-interaction/comment-page-1/#comment-570</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eripsa.org/blog/2005/12/stigmergy-and-social-interaction/#comment-570</guid>
		<description>Hey, one other thing. The creation of hills in the oldest settlements on the edge of the North Sea might just be an example of humans behaving stigmergistically. I&#039;m not confident of the history, but I think there&#039;s evidence that humans just keep adding soil to their hills without necessarily communicating about a master plan. Observing the enviroment, and improving it, so it can be observed by the next group, and improved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, one other thing. The creation of hills in the oldest settlements on the edge of the North Sea might just be an example of humans behaving stigmergistically. I&#8217;m not confident of the history, but I think there&#8217;s evidence that humans just keep adding soil to their hills without necessarily communicating about a master plan. Observing the enviroment, and improving it, so it can be observed by the next group, and improved.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://eripsa.org/2005/12/stigmergy-and-social-interaction/comment-page-1/#comment-569</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eripsa.org/blog/2005/12/stigmergy-and-social-interaction/#comment-569</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think about this stuff as much as I used to, so forgive me if this is complete wankery, but...

Consider a relatively non-social animal, such as a bird. A bird builds a nest using items from the environment. The bird will pick items from the environment and choose where in the environment to build. Why does the bird always pick a spot up in a tree rather than on the base of the tree or out in the open? It&#039;s either reason or instinct, and I bet on instinct.

Back to the insects. you write: 

&quot;All it knows is that if some members of the community do something, to respond in some particular way. The end result gives you complex arches and pillars, and maze-like ant hills, but no individual has the blueprints for those structures built into their genes.&quot;

The key phrase here is &quot;respond in some particular way.&quot; This is the instinct, and this is where the blueprint is, in effect, stored. No, the termite doesn&#039;t have a picture of the pillar or any plan beyond &quot;responding in a particular way.&quot; But that response has been honed over the course of termite evolution so that, when termites respond in a particular way, the results are the pillars or other structures that help termites survive. 

I think we are saying the same thing using different vocabulary, but my point is that the fact that insects communicate using the environment is interesting, but I don&#039;t see what &quot;paradox&quot; it solves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think about this stuff as much as I used to, so forgive me if this is complete wankery, but&#8230;</p>
<p>Consider a relatively non-social animal, such as a bird. A bird builds a nest using items from the environment. The bird will pick items from the environment and choose where in the environment to build. Why does the bird always pick a spot up in a tree rather than on the base of the tree or out in the open? It&#8217;s either reason or instinct, and I bet on instinct.</p>
<p>Back to the insects. you write: </p>
<p>&#8220;All it knows is that if some members of the community do something, to respond in some particular way. The end result gives you complex arches and pillars, and maze-like ant hills, but no individual has the blueprints for those structures built into their genes.&#8221;</p>
<p>The key phrase here is &#8220;respond in some particular way.&#8221; This is the instinct, and this is where the blueprint is, in effect, stored. No, the termite doesn&#8217;t have a picture of the pillar or any plan beyond &#8220;responding in a particular way.&#8221; But that response has been honed over the course of termite evolution so that, when termites respond in a particular way, the results are the pillars or other structures that help termites survive. </p>
<p>I think we are saying the same thing using different vocabulary, but my point is that the fact that insects communicate using the environment is interesting, but I don&#8217;t see what &#8220;paradox&#8221; it solves.</p>
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		<title>By: eripsa</title>
		<link>http://eripsa.org/2005/12/stigmergy-and-social-interaction/comment-page-1/#comment-568</link>
		<dc:creator>eripsa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2005 23:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eripsa.org/blog/2005/12/stigmergy-and-social-interaction/#comment-568</guid>
		<description>Surely you don&#039;t think that when an ant finds food and tells the others where that food is, that the whole process is genetically determined? The information the ants communicate depends essentially on the environment, and the communication itself is stored in the environment, allowing the individual ants to be relatively &#039;dumb&#039; units and yet display complex organized behavior. 

All the genetic &#039;instinct&#039; gives the ant are its basic communicative resources, (the ability to produce pheremones and to translate the pheremones of others to inform their behavior), and a sensitivity to the kind of interaction that occurs between members of the species. Otherwise, the whole thing is stored in the stigmergistic (oh god I hate that word) environment.

Look, the termite&#039;s genes don&#039;t tell it to built an arch here or a pillar there. Where it builds an arch depends on the environment and the actions of others. All it knows is that if some members of the community do something, to respond in some particular way. The end result gives you complex arches and pillars, and maze-like ant hills, but no individual has the blueprints for those structures built into their genes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Surely you don&#8217;t think that when an ant finds food and tells the others where that food is, that the whole process is genetically determined? The information the ants communicate depends essentially on the environment, and the communication itself is stored in the environment, allowing the individual ants to be relatively &#8216;dumb&#8217; units and yet display complex organized behavior. </p>
<p>All the genetic &#8216;instinct&#8217; gives the ant are its basic communicative resources, (the ability to produce pheremones and to translate the pheremones of others to inform their behavior), and a sensitivity to the kind of interaction that occurs between members of the species. Otherwise, the whole thing is stored in the stigmergistic (oh god I hate that word) environment.</p>
<p>Look, the termite&#8217;s genes don&#8217;t tell it to built an arch here or a pillar there. Where it builds an arch depends on the environment and the actions of others. All it knows is that if some members of the community do something, to respond in some particular way. The end result gives you complex arches and pillars, and maze-like ant hills, but no individual has the blueprints for those structures built into their genes.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://eripsa.org/2005/12/stigmergy-and-social-interaction/comment-page-1/#comment-567</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2005 23:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eripsa.org/blog/2005/12/stigmergy-and-social-interaction/#comment-567</guid>
		<description>So, where does instinct end &quot;stigmergy&quot; begin? I could roll a ball of mud and deposit it, but my fellow humans aren&#039;t going to naturally desire to deposit their ball of mud next to mine, resulting in the creation of arches and and whatnot. 

Or to approach it from another angle, there are certain commonalities to ant hills, which is why we have a term for them: &quot;ant hills.&quot; Those hills would not spontaneously arise, so the commonality of the structures must come from a central plan of sorts, and I suppose that we agree that this &quot;central regulation&quot; is embedded, in the form of instinct, in each (or in most) of the ants&#039; brains. They don&#039;t have to imagine the result, of course, but they exhibit that behavior for an evolutionarily determined purpose.

I have no problem with &quot;sigmergy&quot; as a method of communication, but the environment itself is simply a medium for communication, and the blueprint continues to be instinctive.

I guess I don&#039;t get what the &quot;paradox&quot; is, regarding collective ant action.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, where does instinct end &#8220;stigmergy&#8221; begin? I could roll a ball of mud and deposit it, but my fellow humans aren&#8217;t going to naturally desire to deposit their ball of mud next to mine, resulting in the creation of arches and and whatnot. </p>
<p>Or to approach it from another angle, there are certain commonalities to ant hills, which is why we have a term for them: &#8220;ant hills.&#8221; Those hills would not spontaneously arise, so the commonality of the structures must come from a central plan of sorts, and I suppose that we agree that this &#8220;central regulation&#8221; is embedded, in the form of instinct, in each (or in most) of the ants&#8217; brains. They don&#8217;t have to imagine the result, of course, but they exhibit that behavior for an evolutionarily determined purpose.</p>
<p>I have no problem with &#8220;sigmergy&#8221; as a method of communication, but the environment itself is simply a medium for communication, and the blueprint continues to be instinctive.</p>
<p>I guess I don&#8217;t get what the &#8220;paradox&#8221; is, regarding collective ant action.</p>
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		<title>By: eripsa</title>
		<link>http://eripsa.org/2005/12/stigmergy-and-social-interaction/comment-page-1/#comment-566</link>
		<dc:creator>eripsa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2005 06:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eripsa.org/blog/2005/12/stigmergy-and-social-interaction/#comment-566</guid>
		<description>What makes this interesting to me is that we typically think of computer systems as merely aspects of the environment that function purely as the sorts of environmental resources that facilitate human-human interaction. But it seems apparently obvious to me that machines are not merely passive resources in the environment, but active contributors to the kinds and contents of the interactions we engage in. And therefore, that the appropriate sense of &#039;collective&#039; in the human case will consider both human and machines as members of that community.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What makes this interesting to me is that we typically think of computer systems as merely aspects of the environment that function purely as the sorts of environmental resources that facilitate human-human interaction. But it seems apparently obvious to me that machines are not merely passive resources in the environment, but active contributors to the kinds and contents of the interactions we engage in. And therefore, that the appropriate sense of &#8216;collective&#8217; in the human case will consider both human and machines as members of that community.</p>
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		<title>By: eripsa</title>
		<link>http://eripsa.org/2005/12/stigmergy-and-social-interaction/comment-page-1/#comment-565</link>
		<dc:creator>eripsa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2005 05:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eripsa.org/blog/2005/12/stigmergy-and-social-interaction/#comment-565</guid>
		<description>There is no central control, unlike in organisms that have central nervous systems regulating behavior. Ant colonies have no central regulation. So the idea is that what makes the colony a collective is that there are common environmental resources which the individuals draw on to organize group behavior. The point is that the control mechanisms aren&#039;t stored in any individual member of the colony, but in the resources of the chared environment.  The structure of the termite next informs the individual workers about which structures to build, and where. The result is organized activity with no central locus of control.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no central control, unlike in organisms that have central nervous systems regulating behavior. Ant colonies have no central regulation. So the idea is that what makes the colony a collective is that there are common environmental resources which the individuals draw on to organize group behavior. The point is that the control mechanisms aren&#8217;t stored in any individual member of the colony, but in the resources of the chared environment.  The structure of the termite next informs the individual workers about which structures to build, and where. The result is organized activity with no central locus of control.</p>
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		<title>By: ToliverChap</title>
		<link>http://eripsa.org/2005/12/stigmergy-and-social-interaction/comment-page-1/#comment-564</link>
		<dc:creator>ToliverChap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2005 05:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eripsa.org/blog/2005/12/stigmergy-and-social-interaction/#comment-564</guid>
		<description>Quit with the Straw Man thing here.  I am curious about the real issue of what makes something a collective?  I would think it is defined simply by the Utilitarian nature of the results.  I do not see where this ellusive &quot;central control&quot; comes in?  What is an example of a central control in other collective systems?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quit with the Straw Man thing here.  I am curious about the real issue of what makes something a collective?  I would think it is defined simply by the Utilitarian nature of the results.  I do not see where this ellusive &#8220;central control&#8221; comes in?  What is an example of a central control in other collective systems?</p>
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		<title>By: eripsa</title>
		<link>http://eripsa.org/2005/12/stigmergy-and-social-interaction/comment-page-1/#comment-563</link>
		<dc:creator>eripsa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2005 05:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eripsa.org/blog/2005/12/stigmergy-and-social-interaction/#comment-563</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m still confused. Are you denying that ants are individual organisms? You can do that, I suppose, but it seems rather implausible. Most ants are clones, but they are each born from separate eggs and have their own histories. The paradox comes in by seeing ants as individual organisms who work as a collective, and there is no central control for the behavior of the group. The question is where that centralized control comes from, and the answer Grasse gives is through the environmental artifacts manipulated by the individuals. The coordinated behavior of ants is explained in terms of the pheremone trails they leave on the ground, etc. 

They aren&#039;t concluding that ants work as a collective, it is part of the data that needs to be explained.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m still confused. Are you denying that ants are individual organisms? You can do that, I suppose, but it seems rather implausible. Most ants are clones, but they are each born from separate eggs and have their own histories. The paradox comes in by seeing ants as individual organisms who work as a collective, and there is no central control for the behavior of the group. The question is where that centralized control comes from, and the answer Grasse gives is through the environmental artifacts manipulated by the individuals. The coordinated behavior of ants is explained in terms of the pheremone trails they leave on the ground, etc. </p>
<p>They aren&#8217;t concluding that ants work as a collective, it is part of the data that needs to be explained.</p>
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		<title>By: ToliverChap</title>
		<link>http://eripsa.org/2005/12/stigmergy-and-social-interaction/comment-page-1/#comment-562</link>
		<dc:creator>ToliverChap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2005 04:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eripsa.org/blog/2005/12/stigmergy-and-social-interaction/#comment-562</guid>
		<description>No I am not implying that ants don&#039;t work as a collective that is quite obvious.  I take issue with this part:  &quot; ...looking at each individual, they seem to be working as if they were alone and not involved in any collective behaviour.&quot;  I guess that is where the paradox comes in?  I just don&#039;t know how they can qualify the individual behaviour in such a way if the conclusion from the observations is that ants do function as a collective unit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No I am not implying that ants don&#8217;t work as a collective that is quite obvious.  I take issue with this part:  &#8221; &#8230;looking at each individual, they seem to be working as if they were alone and not involved in any collective behaviour.&#8221;  I guess that is where the paradox comes in?  I just don&#8217;t know how they can qualify the individual behaviour in such a way if the conclusion from the observations is that ants do function as a collective unit.</p>
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